[B] 参院選始まる 国家主義で排外主義の政党に票が集まる謎

日刊ベリタ
1 day 11 hours ago
今日7月3日は参院選に公示日である。今回の選挙の見所はいろいろあるが、そのひとつに参政党の動向がある。3年前に前回の参院選でデビュー、国政政党の仲間入りをした。ほとんど誰も知らなかった極小政党が、反ワクチンと有機農業・食の安全を売りに地方議会で存在感を持つようになり、そして今回参院選を迎えた。筆者は前回の参院選後、友人の若手農民と語らって、「私たちは農と食が国家主義・排外主義の枠内で語られることを拒否します 」と題する声明を執筆し、呼びかけ人と賛同者を募り、運動の事務局を担った。その責任を果たすためにも、この政党の動向を注視していく。(大野和興)
日刊ベリタ

🤫 Meta's Secret Spying Scheme | EFFector 37.7

EFF update
1 day 14 hours ago

Keeping up on the latest digital rights news has never been easier. With a new look, EFF's EFFector newsletter covers the latest details on our work defending your rights to privacy and free expression online.

EFFector 37.7 covers some of the very sneaky tactics that Meta has been using to track you online, and how you can mitigate some of this tracking. In this issue, we're also explaining the legal processes police use to obtain your private online data, and providing an update on the NO FAKES Act—a U.S. Senate bill that takes a flawed approach to concerns about AI-generated "replicas." 

And, in case you missed it in the previous newsletter, we're debuting a new audio companion to EFFector as well! This time, Lena Cohen breaks down the ways that Meta tracks you online and what you—and lawmakers—can do to prevent that tracking. You can listen now on YouTube or the Internet Archive.

Listen TO EFFECTOR

EFFECTOR 37.7 - META'S SECRET SPYING SCHEME

Since 1990 EFF has published EFFector to help keep readers on the bleeding edge of their digital rights. We know that the intersection of technology, civil liberties, human rights, and the law can be complicated, so EFFector is a great way to stay on top of things. The newsletter is chock full of links to updates, announcements, blog posts, and other stories to help keep readers—and listeners—up to date on the movement to protect online privacy and free expression. 

Thank you to the supporters around the world who make our work possible! If you're not a member yet, join EFF today to help us fight for a brighter digital future.

Christian Romero

EU Border Software Vulnerable to Hacks, Confidential Reports Warn

Statewatch
2 days ago

"The Schengen Information System II had thousands of cybersecurity issues that the European Data Protection Supervisor, an EU auditor, deemed to be of “high” severity in a 2024 report. It also found that an “excessive number” of accounts had administrator-level access to the database, creating “an avoidable weakness that could be exploited by internal attackers.”

While there is no evidence that any SIS II data was accessed or stolen, a breach “would be catastrophic, potentially affecting millions of people,” said Romain Lanneau, a legal researcher at EU watchdog Statewatch."

Full story: EU Border Software Vulnerable to Hacks, Confidential Reports Warn (paywall)

Statewatch

Podcast Episode: Cryptography Makes a Post-Quantum Leap

EFF update
2 days ago

The cryptography that protects our privacy and security online relies on the fact that even the strongest computers will take essentially forever to do certain tasks, like factoring prime numbers and finding discrete logarithms which are important for RSA encryption, Diffie-Hellman key exchanges, and elliptic curve encryption. But what happens when those problems – and the cryptography they underpin – are no longer infeasible for computers to solve? Will our online defenses collapse? 

%3Ciframe%20height%3D%2252px%22%20width%3D%22100%25%22%20frameborder%3D%22no%22%20scrolling%3D%22no%22%20seamless%3D%22%22%20src%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fplayer.simplecast.com%2Fcf786418-1f0e-452e-8026-ef1a38c77f4e%3Fdark%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bcolor%3D000000%22%20allow%3D%22autoplay%22%3E%3C%2Fiframe%3E Privacy info. This embed will serve content from simplecast.com

   

(You can also find this episode on the Internet Archive and on YouTube.) 

Not if Deirdre Connolly can help it. As a cutting-edge thinker in post-quantum cryptography, Connolly is making sure that the next giant leap forward in computing – quantum machines that use principles of subatomic mechanics to ignore some constraints of classical mathematics and solve complex problems much faster – don’t reduce our digital walls to rubble. Connolly joins EFF’s Cindy Cohn and Jason Kelley to discuss not only how post-quantum cryptography can shore up those existing walls but also help us find entirely new methods of protecting our information. 

In this episode you’ll learn about: 

  • Why we’re not yet sure exactly what quantum computing can do yet, and that’s exactly why we need to think about post-quantum cryptography now 
  • What a “Harvest Now, Decrypt Later” attack is, and what’s happening today to defend against it
  • How cryptographic collaboration, competition, and community are key to exploring a variety of paths to post-quantum resilience
  • Why preparing for post-quantum cryptography is and isn’t like fixing the Y2K bug
  • How the best impact that end users can hope for from post-quantum cryptography is no visible impact at all
  • Don’t worry—you won’t have to know, or learn, any math for this episode!  

Deidre Connolly is a research and applied cryptographer at Sandbox AQ with particular expertise in post-quantum encryption. She also co-hosts the “Security Cryptography Whatever” podcast about modern computer security and cryptography, with a focus on engineering and real-world experiences. Earlier, she was an engineer at the Zcash Foundation – a nonprofit that builds financial privacy infrastructure for the public good – as well as at Brightcove, Akamai, and HubSpot. 

Resources: 

What do you think of “How to Fix the Internet?” Share your feedback here.

Transcript

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: I only got into cryptography and especially post quantum quickly after that. further into my professional life. I was a software engineer for a whil,e and the Snowden leaks happened, and phone records get leaked. All of Verizon's phone records get leaked. and then Prism and more leaks and more leaks. And as an engineer first, I felt like everything that I was building and we were building and telling people to use was vulnerable.
I wanted to learn more about how to do things securely. I went further and further and further down the rabbit hole of cryptography. And then, I think I saw a talk which was basically like, oh, elliptic curves are vulnerable to a quantum attack. And I was like, well, I, I really like these things. They're very elegant mathematical objects, it's very beautiful. I was sad that they were fundamentally broken, and, I think it was, Dan Bernstein who was like, well, there's this new thing that uses elliptic curves, but is supposed to be post quantum secure.
But the math is very difficult and no one understands it. I was like, well, I want to understand it if it preserves my beautiful elliptic curves. That's how I just went, just running, screaming downhill into post quantum cryptography.

CINDY COHN: That's Deirdre Connolly talking about how her love of beautiful math and her anger at the Snowden revelations about how the government was undermining security, led her to the world of post-quantum cryptography.
I'm Cindy Cohn, the executive director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

JASON KELLEY: And I'm Jason Kelley, EFF's activism director. You're listening to How to Fix the Internet.

CINDY COHN: On this show we talk to tech leaders, policy-makers, thinkers, artists and engineers about what the future could look like if we get things right online.

JASON KELLEY: Our guest today is at the forefront of the future of digital security. And just a heads up that this is one of the more technical episodes that we've recorded -- you'll hear quite a bit of cryptography jargon, so we've written up some of the terms that come up in the show notes, so take a look there if you hear a term you don't recognize.

CINDY COHN: Deidre Connolly is a research engineer and applied cryptographer at Sandbox AQ, with a particular expertise in post-quantum encryption. She also co-hosts the Security, Cryptography, Whatever podcast, so she's something of a cryptography influencer too. When we asked our tech team here at EFF who we should be speaking with on this episode about quantum cryptography and quantum computers more generally, everyone agreed that Deirdre was the person. So we're very glad to have you here. Welcome, Deirdre.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Thank you very much for having me. Hi.

CINDY COHN: Now we obviously work with a lot of technologists here and, and certainly personally cryptography is near and dear to my heart, but we are not technologists, neither Jason nor I. So can you just give us a baseline of what post-quantum cryptography is and why people are talking about it?

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Sure. So a lot of the cryptography that we have deployed in the real world relies on a lot of math and security assumptions on that math based on things like abstract groups, Diffie-Hellman, elliptic curves, finite fields, and factoring prime numbers such as, uh, systems like RSA.
All of these, constructions and problems, mathematical problems, have served us very well in the last 40-ish years of cryptography. They've let us build very useful, efficient, small cryptography that we've deployed in the real world. It turns out that they are all also vulnerable in the same way to advanced cryptographic attacks that are only possible and only efficient when run on a quantum computer, and this is a class of computation, a whole new class of computation versus digital computers, which is the main computing paradigm that we've been used to for the last 75 years plus.
Quantum computers allow these new classes of attacks, especially, variants of Shore's algorithm – named Dr. Peter Shore – that basically when run on a sufficiently large, cryptographically relevant quantum computer, makes all of the asymmetric cryptography based on these problems that we've deployed very, very vulnerable.
So post-quantum cryptography is trying to take that class of attack into consideration and building cryptography to both replace what we've already deployed and make it resilient to this kind of attack, and trying to see what else we can do with these fundamentally different mathematical and cryptographic assumptions when building cryptography.

CINDY COHN: So we've kind of, we've secured our stuff behind a whole lot of walls, and we're slowly building a bulldozer. This is a particular piece of the world where the speed at which computers can do things has been part of our protection, and so we have to rethink that.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Yeah, quantum computing is a fundamentally new paradigm of how we process data that promises to have very interesting, uh, and like, applications beyond what we can envision right now. Like things like protein folding, chemical analysis, nuclear simulation, and cryptanalysts, or very strong attacks against cryptography.
But it is a field where it's such a fundamentally new computational paradigm that we don't even know what its applications fully would be yet, because like we didn't fully know what we were doing with digital computers in the forties and fifties. Like they were big calculators at one time.

JASON KELLEY: When it was suggested that we talk to you about this. I admit that I have not heard much about this field, and I realized quickly when looking into it that there's sort of a ton of hype around quantum computing and post-quantum cryptography and that kind of hype can make it hard to know whether or not something is like actually going to be a big thing or, whether this is something that's becoming like an investment cycle, like a lot of things do. And one of the things that quickly came up as an actual, like real danger is what's called sort of “save now decrypt later.”

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Oh yeah.

JASON KELLEY: Right? We have all these messages, for example, that have been encrypted with current encryption methods. And if someone holds onto those, they can decrypt them using quantum computers in the future. How serious is that danger?

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: It’s definitely a concern and it's the number one driver I would say to post-quantum crypto adoption in broad industry right now is mitigating the threat of a Store Now/Decrypt Later attack, also known as Harvest Now/Decrypt Later, a bunch of names that all mean the same thing.
And fundamentally, it's, uh, especially if you're doing any kind of key agreement over a public channel, and doing key agreement over a public channel is part of the whole purpose of like, you want to be able to talk to someone who you've never really, touched base with before, and you all kind of know, some public parameters that even your adversary knows and based on just the fact that you can send messages to each other and some public parameters, and some secret values that only you know, and only the other party knows you can establish a shared secret, and then you can start encrypting traffic between you to communicate. And this is what you do in your web browser when you have an HTTPS connection, that's over TLS.
This is what you do with Signal or WhatsApp or any, or, you know, Facebook Messenger with the encrypted communications. They're using Diffie-Helman as part of the protocol to set up a shared secret, and then you use that to encrypt their message bodies that you're sending back and forth between you.
But if you can just store all those communications over that public channel, and the adversary knows the public parameters 'cause they're freely published, that's part of Kerckhoff’s Principle about good cryptography - the only thing that the adversary shouldn't know about your crypto system is the secret key values that you're actually using. It should be secure against an adversary that knows everything that you know, except the secret key material.
And you can just record all those public messages and all the public key exchange messages, and you just store them in a big database somewhere. And then when you have your large cryptographically relevant quantum computer, you can rifle through your files and say, hmm, let's point it at this.
And that's the threat that's live now to the stuff that we have already deployed and the stuff that we're continuing to do communications on now that is protected by elliptic curve Diffie Hellman, or Finite Field Diffie Hellman, or RSA. They can just record that and just theoretically point an attack at it at a later date when that attack comes online.
So like in TLS, there's a lot of browsers and servers and infrastructure providers that have updated to post-quantum resilient solutions for TLS. So they're using a combination of the classic elliptic curve, Diffie Hellman and a post-quantum KEM, uh, called ML Kem that was standardized by the United States based on a public design that's been, you know, a multi international collaboration to help do this design.
I think that's been deployed in Chrome, and I think it's deployed by CloudFlare and it's getting deployed – I think it's now become the default option in the latest version of Open SSL. And a lot of other open source projects, so that's TLS similar, approaches are being adopted in open SSH, the most popular SSH implementation in the world. Signal, the service has updated their key exchange to also include a post quantum KEM and their updated key establishments. So when you start a new conversation with someone or reset a conversation with someone that is the latest version of Signal is now protected against that sort of attack.
That is definitely happening and it's happening the most rapidly because of that Store now/Decrypt later attack, which is considered live. Everything that we're doing now can just be recorded and then later when the attack comes online, they can attack us retroactively. So that's definitely a big driver of things changing in the wild right now.

JASON KELLEY: Okay. I'm going to throw out two parallels for my very limited knowledge to make sure I understand. This reminds me a little bit of sort of the work that had to be done before Y2K in, in the sense of like, now people think nothing went wrong and nothing was ever gonna go wrong, but all of us working anywhere near the field know actually it took a ton of work to make sure that nothing blew up or stopped working.
And the other is that in, I think it was 1998, EFF was involved in something we called Deep Crack, where we made, that's a, I'm realizing now that's a terrible name. But anyway, the DES cracker, um, we basically wanted to show that DES was capable of being cracked, right? And that this was a - correct me if I'm wrong - it was some sort of cryptographic standard that the government was using and people wanted to show that it wasn't sufficient.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Yes - I think it was the first digital encryption standard. And then after its vulnerability was shown, they, they tripled it up to, to make it useful. And that's why Triple DES is still used in a lot of places and is actually considered okay. And then later came the advanced encryption standard, AES, which we prefer today.

JASON KELLEY: Okay, so we've learned the lesson, or we are learning the lesson, it sounds like.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Uh huh.

CINDY COHN: Yeah, I think that that's, that's right. I mean, EFF built the DES cracker because in the nineties the government was insisting that something that everybody knew was really, really insecure and was going to only get worse as computers got stronger and, and strong computers got in more people's hands, um, to basically show that the emperor had no clothes, um, that this wasn't very good.
And I think with the NIST standards and what's happening with post-quantum is really, you know, the hopeful version is we learned that lesson and we're not seeing government trying to pretend like there isn't a risk in order to preserve old standards, but instead leading the way with new ones. Is that fair?

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: That is very fair. NIST ran this post-quantum competition almost over 10 years, and it had over 80 submissions in the first round from all over the world, from industry, academia, and a mix of everything in between, and then it narrowed it down to. the three that are, they're not all out yet, but there's the key agreement, one called ML Kem, and three signatures. And there's a mix of cryptographic problems that they're based on, but there were multiple rounds, lots of feedback, lots of things got broken.
This competition has absolutely led the way for the world of getting ready for post-quantum cryptography. There are some competitions that have happened in Korea, and I think there's some work happening in China for their, you know, for their area.
There are other open standards and there are standards happening in other standards bodies, but the NIST competition has led the way, and it, because it's all open and all these standards are open and all of the work and the cryptanalysis that has gone in for the whole stretch. It's all been public and all these standards and drafts and analysis and attacks have been public. It's able to benefit everyone in the world.

CINDY COHN: I got started in the crypto wars in the nineties where the government was kind of the problem and they still are. And I do wanna ask you about whether you're seeing any role of the kinda national social security, FBI infrastructure, which has traditionally tried to put a thumb on the scales and make things less secure so that they could have access, if you're seeing any of that there.
But on the NIST side, I think this provides a nice counter example of how government can help facilitate building a better world sometimes, as opposed to being the thing we have to drag kicking and screaming into it.
But let me circle around to the question I embedded in that, which is, you know, one of the problems that that, that we know happened in the nineties around DES, and then of course some of the Snowden revelations indicated some mucking about in security as well behind the scenes by the NSA. Are you seeing anything like that and, and what should we be on the lookout for?

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Not in the PQC stuff. Uh, there, like there have been a lot of people that were paying very close attention to what these independent teams were proposing and then what was getting turned into a standard or a proposed standard and every little change, because I, I was closely following the key establishment stuff.
Um, every little change people were trying to be like, did you tweak? Why did you tweak that? Did, like, is there a good reason? And like, running down basically all of those things. And like including trying to get into the nitty gritty of like. Okay. We think this is approximately these many bits of security using these parameter and like talking about, I dunno, 123 versus 128 bits and like really paying attention to all of that stuff.
And I don't think there was any evidence of anything like that. And, and for, for plus or minus, because there were. I don't remember which crypto scheme it was, but it, there was definitely an improvement from, I think some of the folks at NSA very quietly back in the day to, I think it was the S boxes, and I don't remember if it was DES or AES or whatever it was.
But people didn't understand at the time because it was related to advanced, uh, I think it was a differential crypto analysis attacks that folks inside there knew about, and people in outside academia didn't quite know about yet. And then after the fact they were like, oh, they've made this better. Um, we're not, we're not even seeing any evidence of anything of that character either.
It's just sort of like, it's very open letting, like if everything's proceeding well and the products are going well of these post-quantum standards, like, you know, leave it alone. And so everything looks good. And like, especially for NSA, uh, national Security Systems in the, in the United States, they have updated their own targets to migrate to post-quantum, and they are relying fully on the highest security level of these new standards.
So like they are eating their own dog food. They're protecting the highest classified systems and saying these need to be fully migrated to fully post quantum key agreement. Uh, and I think signatures at different times, but there has to be by like 2035. So if they were doing anything to kind of twiddle with those standards, they'd be, you know, hurting themselves and shooting themselves in the foot.

CINDY COHN: Well fingers crossed.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Yes.

CINDY COHN: Because I wanna build a better internet and a better. Internet means that they aren't secretly messing around with our security. And so this is, you know, cautiously good news.

JASON KELLEY: Let's take a quick moment to thank our sponsor.
“How to Fix the Internet” is supported by The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation’s Program in Public Understanding of Science and Technology. Enriching people’s lives through a keener appreciation of our increasingly technological world and portraying the complex humanity of scientists, engineers, and mathematicians.
We also want to thank EFF members and donors. EFF has been fighting for digital rights for 35 years, and that fight is bigger than ever, so please, if you like what we do, go to eff.org/pod to donate. Also, we’d love for you to join us at this year’s EFF awards, where we celebrate the people working towards the better digital future that we all care so much about. Those are coming up on September 12th in San Francisco. You can find more information about that at eff.org/awards.
We also wanted to share that our friend Cory Doctorow has a new podcast. Listen to this.  [Who Broke the Internet trailer]

JASON KELLEY: And now, back to our conversation with Deirdre Connolly.

CINDY COHN: I think the thing that's fascinating about this is kind of seeing this cat and mouse game about the ability to break codes, and the ability to build codes and systems that are resistant to the breaking, kind of playing out here in the context of building better computers for everyone.
And I think it's really fascinating and I think it also for people I. You know, this is a pretty technical conversation, um, even, you know, uh, for our audience. But this is the stuff that goes on under the hood of how we keep journalists safe, how we keep activists safe, how we keep us all safe, whether it's our bank accounts or our, you know, people are talking about mobile IDs now and other, you know, all sorts of sensitive documents that are going to not be in physical form anymore, but are gonna be in digital form.
And unless we get this lock part right, we're really creating problems for people. And you know, what I really appreciate about you and the other people kind of in the midst of this fight is it's very unsung, right? It's kind of under the radar for the rest of us, but yet it's the, it's the ground that we need to stand on to, to be safe moving forward.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Yeah, and there's a lot of assumptions, uh, that even the low level theoretical cryptographers and the people implementing their, their stuff into software and the stuff, the people trying to deploy, that there's a, a lot of assumptions that have been baked into what we've built that to a degree don't quite fit in some of the, the things we've been able to build in a post-quantum secure way, or the way we think it's a post-quantum secure way.
Um, we're gonna need to change some stuff and we think we know how to change some stuff to make it work. but we are hoping that we don't accidentally introduce any vulnerabilities or gaps.
We're trying, but also we're not a hundred percent sure that we're not missing something, 'cause these things are new. And so we're trying, and we're also trying to make sure we don't break things as we change them because we're trying to change them to be post quantum resilient. But you know, once you change something, if there's a possibility, you, you just didn't understand it completely. And you don't wanna break something that was working well in one direction because you wanna improve it in another direction.

CINDY COHN: And that's why I think it's important to continue to have a robust community of people who are the breakers, right? Who are, are hackers, who are, who are attacking. And that is a, you know, that's a mindset, right? That's a way of thinking about stuff that is important to protect and nurture, um, because, you know, there's an old quote from Bruce Schneider: Anyone can build a crypto system that they themselves cannot break. Right? It takes a community of people trying to really pound away at something to figure out where the holes are.
And you know, a lot of the work that EFF does around coders rights and other kinds of things is to make sure that there's space for that. and I think it's gonna be as needed in a quantum world as it was in a kind of classical computer world.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Absolutely. I'm confident that we will learn a lot more from the breakers about this new cryptography because, like, we've tried to be robust through this, you know, NIST competition, and a lot of those, the things that we learn apply to other constructions as they come out. but like there's a whole area of people who are going to be encountering this kind of newish cryptography for the first time, and they kind of look at it and they're like. Oh, uh, I, I think I might be able to do something interesting with this, and we're, we'll all learn more and we'll try to patch and update as quickly as possible

JASON KELLEY: And this is why we have competitions to figure out what the best options are and why some people might favor one algorithm over another for different, different processes and things like that.

DEIDRE CONNOLLY: And that's why we're probably gonna have a lot of different flavors of post-quantum cryptography getting deployed in the world because it's not just, ah, you know, I don't love NIST. I'm gonna do my own thing in my own country over here. Or, or have different requirements. There is that at play, but also you're trying to not put all your eggs in one basket as well.

CINDY COHN: Yeah, so we want a menu of things so that people can really pick, from, you know, vetted, but different strategies. So I wanna ask the kind of core question for the podcast, which is, um, what does it look like if we get this right, if we get quantum computing and, you know, post-quantum crypto, right?
How does the world look different? Or does it just look the same? How, what, what does it look like if we do this well?

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Hopefully to a person just using their phone or using their computer to talk to somebody on the other side of the world, hopefully they don't notice. Hopefully to them, if they're, you know, deploying a website and they're like, ah, I need to get a Let’s Encrypt certificate or whatever.
Hopefully Let's Encrypt just, you know, insert bot just kind of does everything right by default and they don't have to worry about it.
Um, for the builders, it should be, we have a good recommended menu of cryptography that you can use when you're deploying TLS, when you're deploying SSH, uh, when you're building cryptographic applications, especially.
So like if you are building something in Go or Java or you know, whatever it might be, the crypto library in your language will have the updated recommended signature algorithm or key agreement algorithm and be, like, this is how we, you know, they have code snippets to say like, this is how you should use it, and they will deprecate the older stuff.
And, like, unfortunately there's gonna be a long time where there's gonna be a mix of the new post-quantum stuff that we know how to use and know how to deploy and protect. The most important, you know, stuff like to mitigate Store now/Decrypt later and, you know, get those signatures with the most important, uh, protected stuff.
Uh, get those done. But there's a lot of stuff that we're not really clear about. How we wanna do it yet, and kind of going back to one of the things you mentioned earlier, uh, comparing this to Y2K, there was a lot of work that went into mitigating Y2K before, during, immediately after.
Unfortunately, the comparison to the post quantum migration kind of falls down because after Y2K, if you hadn't fixed something, it would break. And you would notice in usually an obvious way, and then you could go find it. You, you fix the most important stuff that, you know, if it broke, like you would lose billions of dollars or, you know, whatever. You'd have an outage.
For cryptography, especially the stuff that's a little bit fancier. Um, you might not know it's broken because the adversary is not gonna, it's not gonna blow up.
And you have to, you know, reboot a server or patch something and then, you know, redeploy. If it's gonna fail, it's gonna fail quietly. And so we're trying to kind of find these things, or at least make the kind of longer tail of stuff, uh, find fixes for that upfront, you know, so that at least the option is available.
But for a regular person, hopefully they shouldn't notice. So everyone's trying really hard to make it so that the best security, in terms of the cryptography is deployed with, without downgrading your experience. We're gonna keep trying to do that.
I don't wanna build crap and say “Go use it.” I want you to be able to just go about your life and use a tool that's supposed to be useful and helpful. And it's not accidentally leaking all your data to some third party service or just leaving a hole on your network for any, any actor who notices to walk through and you know, all that sort of stuff.
So whether it's like implementing things securely in software, or it's cryptography or you know, post-quantum weirdness, like for me, I just wanna build good stuff for people, that's not crap.

JASON KELLEY: Everyone listening to this agrees with you. We don't want to build crap. We want to build some beautiful things. Let's go out there and do it.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Cool.

JASON KELLEY: Thank you so much, Deirdre.

DEIRDRE CONNOLLY: Thank you!

CINDY COHN: Thank you Deirdre. We really appreciate you coming and explaining all of this to, you know, uh, the lawyer and activist at EFF.

JASON KELLEY: Well, I think that was probably the most technical conversation we've had, but I followed along pretty well and I feel like at first I was very nervous based on the, save and decrypt concerns. But after we talked to Deirdre, I feel like the people working on this. Just like for Y2K are pretty much gonna keep us out of hot water. And I learned a lot more than I did know before we started the conversation. What about you, Cindy?

CINDY COHN: I learned a lot as well. I mean, cryptography and, attacks on security is always, you know, it's a process, and it's a process by which we do the best we can, and then, then we also do the best we can to rip it apart and find all the holes, and then we, we iterate forward. And it's nice to hear that that model is still the model, even as we get into something like quantum computers, which, um, frankly are still hard to conceptualize.
But I agree. I think that what the good news outta this interview is I feel like there's a lot of pieces in place to try to do this right, to have this tremendous shift in computing that we don't know when it's coming, but I think that the research indicates that it SI coming, be something that we can handle, um, rather than something that overwhelms us.
And I think that's really,it's good to hear that good people are trying to do the right thing here since it's not inevitable.

JASON KELLEY: Yeah, and it is nice when someone's sort of best vision for what the future looks like is hopefully your life. You will have no impacts from this because everything will be taken care of. That's always good.
I mean, it sounds like, you know, the main thing for EFF is, as you said, we have to make sure that security engineers, hackers have the resources that they need to protect us from these kinds of threats and, and other kinds of threats obviously.
But, you know, that's part of EFF's job, like you mentioned. Our job is to make sure that there are people able to do this work and be protected while doing it so that when the. Solutions do come about. You know, they work and they're implemented and the average person doesn't have to know anything and isn't vulnerable.

CINDY COHN: Yeah, I also think that, um, I appreciated her vision that this is a, you know, the future's gonna be not just one. Size fits all solution, but a menu of things that take into account, you know, both what works better in terms of, you know, bandwidth and compute time, but also what you know, what people actually need.
And I think that's a piece that's kind of built into the way that this is happening that's also really hopeful. In the past and, and I was around when EFF built the DES cracker, um, you know, we had a government that was saying, you know, you know, everything's fine, everything's fine when everybody knew that things weren't fine.
So it's also really hopeful that that's not the position that NIST is taking now, and that's not the position that people who may not even pick the NIST standards but pick other standards are really thinking through.

JASON KELLEY: Yeah, it's very helpful and positive and nice to hear when something has improved for the better. Right? And that's what happened here. We had this, this different attitude from, you know, government at large in the past and it's changed and that's partly thanks to EFF, which is amazing.

CINDY COHN: Yeah, I think that's right. And, um, you know, we'll see going forward, you know, the governments change and they go through different things, but this is, this is a hopeful moment and we're gonna push on through to this future.
I think there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of worry about quantum computers and what they're gonna do in the world, and it's nice to have a little vision of, not only can we get it right, but there are forces in place that are getting it right. And of course it does my heart so, so good that, you know, someone like Deirdre was inspired by Snowden and dove deep and figured out how to be one of the people who was building the better world. We've talked to so many people like that, and this is a particular, you know, little geeky corner of the world. But, you know, those are our people and that makes me really happy.

JASON KELLEY: Thanks for joining us for this episode of How to Fix the Internet.
If you have feedback or suggestions, we'd love to hear from you. Visit EFF dot org slash podcast and click on listener feedback. While you're there, you can become a member, donate, maybe even pick up some merch and just see what's happening in digital rights this week and every week.
Our theme music is by Nat Keefe of BeatMower with Reed Mathis
How to Fix the Internet is supported by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation's program in public understanding of science and technology.
We’ll see you next time.
I’m Jason Kelley…

CINDY COHN: And I’m Cindy Cohn.

MUSIC CREDITS: This podcast is licensed creative commons attribution 4.0 international, and includes the following music licensed creative commons attribution 3.0 unported by its creators: Drops of H2O, The Filtered Water Treatment by Jay Lang. Sound design, additional music and theme remixes by Gaetan Harris.

Josh Richman