Work Group on a Solidarity Socio-Economy - Alliance 21
Preparatory Meeting for Launching of the Workshop on International Regulations
within the Context of a Solidarity Socio-Economy in an era of Globalization
October 9 - 11, 2003
Tokyo
On Social Movement
Christoph Aguiton ( ATTAC, France)
I will present something about the movements, the characteristics of
these movements, and also some of the tendencies we can talk about toward
the new movement. The first thing is that as people from my generation
know, we had a large movement in 1970s, but there was a setback in the
1980s with the Reagan/Thatcher years. But now the departure point is to
analyze the fact that we are in new wave of mobilization and new cycle
of mobilization, and that this new cycle of mobilization is one of the
most important ones ever. I'd like to give you an example, though it is
quite obvious for us. The 15th February against War was probably the biggest
demonstration ever organized in the world, and ever organized as a coordination
and common action all over the world. But the behind this world mobilization
of the 15th February, if we look at our national realities - and this
is particularly true in Europe, but also in the South and in some Asian
countries -- we have now a process of national mass mobilization in several
fields and several kinds of actions.
It is very clear if you look at France. We had in the last year three
major mobilization with more than 1 million people, in a small country.
Well, there are only sixty million people in France, so it is not like
US and Japan. We had a big demonstration when Le Pen and the fascists
were going to have an election one year ago. And 15th February involved
a lot of countries, not only France obviously. After the big strike against
pension system reform in France, like in several countries, we had 1 million
demonstrators in the streets. These examples are not specific to France.
If you look to Italy, after Genoa, they had several waves of mobilization
and demonstrations in which one also they had more than 1 million people,
including the ethic against Berlusconni trying to have an amnesty, and
corruption and so on. They had several mobilizations. Some of them were
close to a million people and in the social issues and obviously anti-war
issue. This is also true for Greece, Austria, Spain, Germany and England
in which it is quite fantastic country now to live. It was the country
in Europe which had little mobilization in the past, and now it is an
enormous transformation. It is impressive to see how the country is changing
and mobilization is growing. Then there is the example of Iraq, we could
talk about the lot of the countries.
These movements obviously started out with anti-globalization, because
Seattle was the turning point. Even in some countries the movement started
before the Seattle; it is impossible to understand Seattle without understanding
the root of Seattle. This was true in Europe and France, which was probably
the first country with a wave of mobilization, in 1995. The US had also
new unionism and the new youth movement in 90s and several counties had
the same things. After Anti-globalization, there was the anti-war movement,
but this anti-war movement - and this is a big difference with anti-war
movement we knew for example in 80s against the Pershing and missile deployment
in Europe - this anti-war movement was totally related to the anti-globalization
movement. That is not the exactly the case in US, I think, where the anti-war
movement has its own specificity because after September 11th, things
are more difficult to manage. But looking at other countries, it is clear
that anti-war movement is strictly related and coming from the anti-globalization
movements. And the main proof of that, it is the fact that the day 15th
February was decided first by European countries in the Forum in Milan
last November. After that, at the world level, in Porto Alegre during
the world social forums, it is clearly possible to see that the correlation
between those two movements is extremely strong. And now we have in Jakarta,
Jakarta the peace conference, where two movements get together. And clearly
everyone knows the only way to develop these movements is to do it inside
the big movement which now exists at the world level in particular inside
the world social forum in several continents. And next event, for example,
for the anti-war movement could be Mumbai, next January to organize several
activities, such as the Watch Center and Monitor Center in Baghdad, the
Caravan in Baghdad and Palestine, the big day of mobilization, the Tribunal
against Bush and Blair, all activities in development on anti-war issues.
That is really important, but it is also important to see that in several
countries these anti-war and anti-globalization movements are the beginning
of a more classic social movement. These classic social movements, and
this is quite new, are really looked at by their own actors as part of
a global one. I was fascinated to see how, for example, in the second
social forum, people from Argentina looked at their own movement against
IMF and neo-liberalism, how this movement was related to the world one.
Also, there was the big strike we had in France in May and June. It was
clear that the strike was part of the global justice movement. That is
really general picture.
Now, let us look a little at the problems and characteristics of the movement
to understand the strength of the movement. First, there are some similarities
with '68. One of the main similarities with '68 is the fact that the movement
started among the youth and started in the North even in the best university
in the North with in fact I think it is a proof of universality of the
movement because it is not only a resistance movement of the poor people
who had no choice but to resist the system. It also gives some credibility
to the worldwide movement we are now. It is a crisis of the system because
the people in the heart of the system are involved. For example, in the
US in Harvard the movement is the strongest in the US. And that is the
proof that these movements are coming from the heart of the system. It
is a problem of a crisis of the system no more than that. It is the similar
to the '68. If you remember '68 in France, it started at the Ecole Superieur,
the biggest university in our country. After that, ??? part of the youth.
We had the same kind of process. There is a big difference is that in
68s youth movement was world-wide one, but it was opposing majority of
the country to the union and classic working class movement. This is understandable
because '68 was the end of the big wave of economic growth after WW II.
Unions believed that they had been able to win a lot of conquests through
collective bargaining. Generally they had good conclusions with bargaining.
And Unions thought the system were able to give them a lot of things.
It was true that between the 50s and 70s they won lot of advantages and
benefits all over the world, particularly in the first world, through
this process. In opposition, the young and youth movement were opposing
the Vietnam War, but also the system and consumer society. That was a
big shock, a cultural shock, between the youth and working class movements.
And in the majority of countries, a link between youth and working class
movements was not possible at all. Even in the US, if you remember, unions
were in favor of the Vietnam War and absolutely opposed to the youth movement.
That is not true anymore. Unions are really weaker than they were in '67
and '68, and they have lost half their members all over the world. They
understand they need some links and networks and common actions. If we
look at the movement even in there are differences between unions and
movements and farmer organizations -- we saw that in Cancun, where you
had statements with a quite difference from the other ones -- despite
these differences, we are in the same movement. Unions were in Cancun,
Porto Alegre and Paris. That shows a correlation of forces because now
we have a movement in which more less all NGOs and all unions and all
youth movement and farmer organizations are apart even with differences
and different point of view and so forth. That is a global picture, and
quite an optimistic picture.
Now I would like to discuss two things. The first is weakness of globalization,
and strategic and problems it created for the movement. And after that,
another issue deals with the characteristic of this movement, talking
about the network and this new way to act to take decisions to represent
the movement with "networks" and "consensus" and all
consequences of the new ways to organize things with to for the social
movement, not only for the social movement.
First about the weakness of globalization, we had in the last year two
proofs at least of the weakness of globalization. Even if people think
generally that globalization is very strong, because the system is strong,
George Bush is strong, and so and so, the proof for me was the first clash
between the big States around the war. It was the first time since the
WW II, the clash was so strong that several diplomats say it was from
them a major crisis, the biggest since the cold war between US and USSR.
If you look at the reality, you had all continental Europe, including
Russia, in an absolutely new way, in common against US and Britain. That
was a big shock, and the second one was Cancun. If you have two shocks,
this is really icing the proof of the weakness of the globalization.
I think it is useful to have a sort of flashback to the end of the first
phase of globalization the world knew . The world had the first phase
of globalization between 1850s and 1870s-80s and more less. And the reason
why the globalization collapsed more than one century ago was really interesting,
because the globalization collapsed first at all in Germany but after
that, it affected France and England, Russia, for two reasons. First is
the economic crisis. Secondly it was the growth of the working class movement,
and a little bit the farmer's movement. If you look at the social story
of the 1870s, the French movement which was quite strong until '71, when
it was defeated with the Paris Commune, which was crushed with a huge
defeat and massacre of the Paris people. In Germany in which the movement
was growing also a lot, in 70s the movement was not at all the same situation
because the working class people were able to organize themselves. They
were able to organize themselves, unions were growing and democracy was
growing also. Against that, Bismarck reacted with two kinds of policy.
First one was to repress social democracy. He put out laws forbidding
social democrats from running in elections, etc. Bismarck was clearly
the head of state, and repression was not enough, as it risked revolution.
Hence, he pushed the bosses to give some advantages and benefits to the
working class and at the same time, he proposed several laws to give Germany
the first social security. Germany was the first country in the world
to know global social security, with retirement security and accident
insurance, in 1880 more than 70 years before France and other countries.
And he was forced to do that because the movement was strong, and also
because of the economic crisis. The economic situation was bad in Germany
in the middle of 70s. The cost of labor was increasing importantly and
quickly. Bismarck had to put in place several tariffs to protect national
industry. Against this, France reacted, putting its own tariffs.
The end of the globalization took place more or less in the 80s and 90s.
The important things to see what were the consequences of the end of the
globalization. There were two kinds of consequences. The frst consequence
is analyzed by Polyani in the Great Transformation. In fact, with these
national states, the States were able to give more to the workers. It
was the end of the world of Dickens and Zola, the awful world the workers
knew in the 90s. And that was the possible because States had the means
to have a redistribution and have the beginning of real social policy,
though it was not enough. It was the beginning of the social policy. But
Polyani did not explain at the same time this breakup of globalization,
and beginning of the new empires, because the colonialism was stopped
at the moment and colonialism was looked at as a former story for former
times. With the breakdown of globalization, every European country needed
to have a backyard, and a new colonial empire like Japan. This was the
run-up to WWI and WWII. With the consequence of those clashes - the breakdown
of the first phase of globalization --- it is interesting for us to understand
little bit what could happen now. I think we are in a quite similar situation.
I am not saying that globalization will collapse tomorrow, no one knows,
there are many factors, particularly the economical situation. But if
we look at the today's situation, we have economical crisis with real
difficulty in recovering after three years of bad cycle. At the same time,
we have strong movements and the only tool for the movement is the nation
state, and for the workers in France as well as in Japan and US., the
only way is to crush the government. The only way to development is to
ask benefit and better social security and better wages. And these two
clashes, one economical crisis and the other social movements in the nation
states, are the real roots of the weakness of globalization, because every
state is protecting the market and the reason that is not demanding globalization,
but more demanding protection for itself and the working class and more
global movement including the farmer is demanding for some protecting
rules to protect themselves against globalization and delocalization and
so on. That is important issue I think because that puts on the table
several strategical descriptions between the movements. First at all,
is the debate between alter globalization or anti-globalization but in
a way nationalistic way. And we have in the movement, even if I think
it is really in the minority. Some people will think that only way to
a good world is to come back to the nation states. We have this kind of
nationalistic thinking in the movement and we have also part of it is
Malthusian. It is possible to say that, thinkers in the movement, I am
thinking of Goldsmith. For example, we are explaining clearly that Goldsmith,
the guy from The Ecologist, who is really explaining in his book that
only solution for globalization is to come back to small villages, family
life and so on. That is the first debate.
The second debate is out to fight against Bush, and for the Europeans
it would be the Japanese and the people from Mercosur, how to do with
our own states bourgeoisie. For example, in Jakarta we had a very interesting
debate because you had the one hand the people from the USA. I do not
know if you have the same thinking as them?? It was the people from United
Peace and Justice, Philis Benigs, Bob Wings. They were explaining that
for them, main challenge of the movement is to defeat the George Bush.
For this reason, everything against George Bush is correct; even to have
an alliance with Jaques Chirac. Main target is to defeat George Bush is
so dangerous for the world that we have to have the world alliance against
George Bush. The analogy they use is with 1928, 33, 38 just before WW
II. They thought that really the main goal for the movement is to have
huge unity between obviously different parts of the movement, even with
the European governments who opposed to the war. Against that, we explained
that the analogy with the years before WW II, was quite dangerous. It
becomes easy to valorize the European model against US model. That is
the beginning of the end in my position Because it would be possible for
you to take the same line in Japan. Japanese is much more egalitarian
than those countries, which is true, even if the homeless are growing.
And doing that, it is the shift between different parts of the big countries
with the beginning of the end, a bad way to finish with globalization,
I think so. A good way would be to have a global policy, world response
for global movement and to fight for global justice with the all the part
of the movement and to understand that our best allies are the people
in the US fighting against Bush. And their best ally is us and not Jaques
Chirac, for example. It is a real interesting debate, at least in the
last year That was the first point that I would like to put on the table
because I think these debate has started right now.
The second debate is about the characteristic of the new movement and
specificity of the way we act together. If we look very concretely in
Porte Alegre as well as in Florence, Paris and Asia, the only way to work
to network and to act to take decision with consensus. That is obvious
between us and really two these words, "networks" and "consensus"
we are using all the time in our movement. With all these movements, it
is really common culture: consensus and networks. And these ways to do
things bring success. If you look at last four years from Seattle to now,
we were able with network and consensus to build a big internationalism
we have never had in the world before and also to have the movement able
to integrate to accept new topics. For example, during the first phase
of the movement between Seattle and Geneva, to be brief the movement was
only focusing on economic globalization, no more than that. There was
a clear vision between these two years when the countries were not involved
in war. Seattle was six months after the Kosovo War, the Balkan War, and
Geneva was two months before September 11th, the starting point of a new
wave of war against Iraq and so on. And for those reasons, there were
sort of naivety in the movement focusing of only economical institution
such as IMF and World Bank, WTO and the G8 as a economical problem more
than political one and war one. After the September 11th, everything changed
and it was the beginning we know all story. But the interesting thing
to see even at the beginning, it was little bit difficult, I remember
very well the Second world social forum, which one we had really tension
about the issue of war, because part of the union and social democratic
parties refused to come down on the Afghan War. But very few very soon
the movement was able to recuperate unity in particular once Iraq war
started. And the movement showed that it is able to move to integrate
new topics to integrate new dimension and it's true in the antiwar movement
and also the social movement. Now we have in France as I told in the beginning
a big strike against pension system reform. And all these things are related.
With consensus and network it is possible to move toward integrating several
part of the movement and have a good evolution of the movement. \ And
I think that these things are not characteristic only of the social movement
and global justice movement. It we look at little bit behind, it is more
a global evolution of the world. If you look, for example, at the evolution
of capitalism, the companies themselves are changing very quickly and
transforming themselves, into a new sort of network, very hierarchical
networks because obviously headquarters are in North such as US and Japan
and European Union in general. And it is a hierarchical network, but companies
are changing very quickly. If you look at Nike and Gap or even Cisco,
a lot of companies in new economy, the companies are only marketing centers
or development centers. All the fabrication, factories, are subcontracted.
All of them. It is a dream of the capitalism to be able to have a company
without workers and unions, without troublemakers. It is the best dream
as possible for a capitalist! But these new ways force the unions to change
their strategy because if you are in Malaysia for example, if you are
struggling against a subcontractor of Nike to have a better wage and whatever,
first you will not win and secondly you will lose your job because Nike
will move to another country. That explains in US particular in the beginning
why unions adopted new strategies. I am thinking of Unite, or example,
the union of the textile and clothes . They are improving new strategy,
linking themselves with the south unions, linking the unions with the
youth movement and consumer movement with the idea that they need new
alliance to focus more and target more in the logo, the brand, as Naomi
Kline explained, because it is the new value of the society in the new
capitalism. That explains why there is in French we say "isomorphie,"
from the Greek. It means equivalence of shapes, or shape-shifting, between
capitalism and the movement because there is obviously the link between
for example the way which one unions built themselves in 50s. There were
big factories and Taylorism, in front of that, hierarchical unions and
big unions and big factories. Now again this new form of capitalism like
Nike and Ciscso, you need new forms of social movement unionism, new form
of alliance and new forms of network. That explains why these two forms
are related.
It is not only toward union and company capitalism, this is toward the
international institution. If you look at WTO, it is an interesting example,
it is like the UN but much better than UN. It is like UN without the security
council and without veto of five big countries. WTO is democratic. Every
country has one vote and every one is equal, absolutely perfect. But in
practice WTO will never vote because it is impossible for US or EU or
Japan to be in a minority in an alliance with Burkina Faso and Bangladesh
and Nicaragua, for example. It is impossible and unbelievable. For these
reasons, WTO works only with consensus and in fact the form of network.
If we look at the evolution of a lot of institution, they are evolving
like that. And there is a big correlation between the evolution of the
global capitalism and companies as well as international institutions,
and the way in which we act, and this new way to act, it is a really serious
matter, because it is a something able to function. I explained it at
the social movement level. And if we look at the function of capitalism,
some analysts explain that the failure of the WTO at Cancun was explainable
because their rules are network and consensus. I think it is a total mistake
and false understanding because the UN who has more clear rules and capacity
to vote for the security council and so on, but was also totalitarized
the war issue. The failure of Cancun as well as the failure of UN during
the Iraq crisis have the same roots with the big clash between big countries.
It is more these weaknesses of the globalization explains why WTO collapsed
in Cancun. The problem of rules is really a secondary aspect These new
way to function with network and consensus, it is really I think a long
cycle of way to act. We really think about a lot of problems, but before
talking about them, we must understand the strength of this way, which
is able to work as I explained it. But also, these ways to act give a
lot of opportunities for the actor itself. If you are in the union or
political party in the 50s, and in 60s the only way to have a change of
orientation is to debate in the congress to have a majority. If you have
a majority, OK you won and you can put your line on the table. But if
you are in the minority, only way to work with is to wait for the next
round, at the electoral level. You either control the country, or you
do not, you have the city or you don't, and you wait next round.
If you look at the consensus and network, things are not the same. If
you have a problem with the union, you do something new. If an NGO, you
do something new.. This new way to act in the movement creates much more
opportunity to self-organization and what is people named in US affinity
group, which is a good example.
TAPE 2 SIDE A
Traditionally I am thinking about Spain in the 30s or some unions at the
end of 19th century. We had also some aspect a little bit like these new
forms of affinity groups and so on. These experience were a minority in
some parts of social movement. The new thing is really that it's a new
way to act for everyone now. That creates three problems that I will talk
about before going to my conclusion with the alternative and problems
around that. First, the fact is that it can be extremely violent, in the
sense that the majoritatian way to resolve the conflict, the classic way,
whether a representative democracy or participatory democracy, has a majority
and minority. If you are in democratic country, the majority has to respect
the right of minority and these relations between majority and minority
are the key of political science in all our countries. If you look at
the consensus because it is more difficult to have a consensus with a
big assembly, when you have it, it is extremely violent against people
who are not in consensus. I cannot explain now, but we have to understand
that consensus is not so soft. It can be extremely violent.
The second characteristic of consensus is that it gives visibility to
the actors themselves when you have a vote with majority and minority
you are supposed to understand what are the terms of vote and the alternative.
When you have a consensus, it is extremely difficult to understand which
way the consensus was attained, and how it was built. For the actors in
these movement is quite impossible to understand. If you look, for example,
at Europe, the country that are the most post modern are following the
US model -- or example it is Spain now. But Spain has probably the biggest
movement in Europe, particularly Catalonia, Barcelona, it is absolutely
incredible. The movement is moving themselves extremely quickly and dissolving
themselves and are creating themselves extremely quickly. In this way,
to work with network is very flexible and open and horizontal, but there
is little memory and few common stories between the people. Few people
are able to tell the story and to give the memory to the actors themselves.
That is a real problem.
That introduces my last part with the lack of strategy in the networks
and in this kind of movement. This movement functions because you can
have a common political goal to fight against IMF and WTO and so on, but
the strategy to change the world is something you never talk about because
you have to maintain the unity between all the partners and the strategies
are something made without discussion in these kinds of movement.
Now I will finish with alternative and kind of policies and alternative
movement can put on the table. First at all, it is clear that traditionally
the ways to do things was simple. We had the social movement or NGO, whatever,
and political response was given by political parties. The political parties
were representatives of alternative in general. That now functions less
and less. And even if these movements had political consequences, I am
thinking in Latin America it's so obvious, with Lula's victory in Brazil
and the change in Argentina, the victory of Gutierez in Ecuador and so
also the growth of the mass in Bolivian and so on. Even not talking about
Venezuela, which was another case. In our country, in Europe, it's the
same. The Social democratic party in France, for example, is moving very
quickly and now is trying to make common link with the movement and so
on. And we can see that. But the same time, it is obvious in the case
of Socialist Party in France, that looks more like rhetoric. It looks
more like political opportunism. And even in the case of Brazil and Ecuador,
we can talk about the concrete policies of Lula, but for sure Lula is
not breaking with neo-liberalism for sure. That gives an example of difficulties
to change the things and think to do alternative. Interesting case of
Brazil is the fact that Lula, even he had some good thinking on policies,
as Brazil played a role in the Cancun collapse, concrete policy in Brazil
changed little
At the same time, the most radical part of social movement and I am thinking
of Amnesty<??> .for example, has no alternative policy, no real
alter policy. There is no real other policy. They have their part, the
land aspect. I did not see in Brazil forces able to defend another program.
And it's sort of a lack of program in. The Lula government has few alternative
ideas about how to change their country and same for the left side. It
is a little bit light if we do not have the equivalent of a big strategy
some we had some decades ago. Obviously the socialist way collapsed, but
also in our country social democracy had Keynesianism as the main ideology.
That has collapsed also and a lot of South countries tried local import
substitution, but that collapsed also. Those are the three big ways to
see that the change in the world is we had in common in the 60-70s collapsed
without an alternative.
Now our problem is to understand how to build alternative, there are several
idea on the table. Marcos presented a lot of interesting ideas. I will
focus on just two ideas. First, I think extremely important to follow
the concrete demand expressed by the movement because if there is a common
lesson, evaluation we can have for the last century. It's the fact that
it's worst when you or we try good way to change the world from the bottom
down. Obviously so called communism in several countries, but also social
democracy, even if it was different from the USSR and so on.
For me the first evaluation is to start from the concrete demands of the
people. It is very obvious and it looks very simple, but I think it is
quite elementary, and generally the government did not do it. What the
landless demand in Brazil and what homeless people demand in Japan and
France, to start with that, that is elementary. Second idea which is my
conclusion is to think that the change of the society starts from actual
society. I agree with Marcos' presentation. If we look a little bit at
the vision of the alternative and socialism for the future made by the
working class movement or more generally the social movement, it is interesting
to see that always it started from the realities of their economy at the
moment they existed. I give you very simple example. I come from a movement
with a strong Marxist tradition. But obviously we saw ourselves in 70s
as the people able to have a scientific response against the pre Marxist
which was looked as sort of as an archaic way to think of the world. This
archaic way was the Proudhon way, important in France but more than France
I think. He thought that the way to shift capitalism was protecting local
and small property. His idea was to protect small handicraft workers and
small producers and small farmers against big capitalism, who in this
period was seen as only robbing the skill of handicraft workers and individual
workers. And Proudhon had a very simple way to see the socialism of the
future, though I don't know if he used the term. He saw the need to have
sort of society of small producers sharing between themselves, and no
more than that. Not Marxist itself, Marxism is more complex and I have
no time to explain our common Marxism. But according to it, a good way
to change the world is to use the state to have a nationalization of the
big means of pollution and so on and so on.
We did not realize in this period that this way to see society was totally
related to the situation of capitalism at the beginning of the 20th century.
It is really funny to see that if Lenin used the term "communism
is the electricity plus the circuit." Before Lenin it was really
Kautsky, and Kautsky was really the pope of the social democracy, and
the pope of international socialism, but the Second International, social
democracy. And when someone asked him what means socialism for you, he
said it is very simple, it is like a train and highways administration
at the scale of the society. That is really interesting because it shows
at this period the big thinker of socialism -- and Kautsky was the biggest
at this time -- shows socialism as the only way to use the existing big
services and big companies at the level of the society and no more than
that. And now what we are able to see is to think the first that Lenin
and Kautsky were wrong in several parts.
For example, the farmers of the Via Campesina, Jose Bove shows the very
clearly that it is much better to have a good cheese made by the local
producers than big capitalist companies. There is a sort of rehabilitation
of the small producers, in particular in the farm, but not only farm,
but more general than that. It is sort of rehabilitation in part of Proudhon.
However, there is new very interesting thing in this new movement, which
is really related to do with networks. It is all the story of the free
software. That is for me, it is fascinating because if you look at the
way to have a shift or rupture, with capitalism, we saw always thought
that the State was the only way. When people did not think of the State,
they think local production as in Proudhon. But for the first time in
the history of humanity probably, there is a new way to do a non-profit
economy to do a non-profit action with world-wide one absolutely against
rules and against State and against planification. If you know Linux,
all the software is free software production. The idea is exactly against
property rules, against the states, against any kind of regulation. The
only thing they say is leave us alone to do what we want, no more than
that. That works. Now if you look bit at profession at software production,
the only big competitor to Microsoft is Linux and free software world.
It is so strong that big countries such as China and India, as well as
Japan, are thinking to use that to limit Microsoft. It is really impressive
to see that because it shows another way to lead a solidarity economy
if possible to say that, absolutely disconnected with the market, but
disconnected with the traditional way to see the change of the society.
Obviously my conclusion it is not possible to change the world only with
the system like free software because to have a train arriving on time.
It is useful to have a good administration. For that we must imagine the
new form of economy for combination this kind of total free activity based
on the idea of giving which is important, and also to defend public services
and sort of planification. Not only trains: we need a lot of social services
and small economy with the small pollution. To be able to think at these
three levels, it will be a better to have a common answer, but I did not
talk about the regulation because you will do it a lot. Thanks a lot.
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